One Veteran's Voice

13 January 2006

More Healthy Debate

Another cut and paste quickie debate, this time from the comments of american short-timer's blog.

OneVeteran'sVoice said...

yo your shit is dope AST

If all else fails
blog the Iraq war
cause the bullets ain't workin baby

Hey Maybe if the STUPID FUCKS
who run this country realized that the only way to kill fanaticism is
THE FREE SPREAD OF INFORMATION, the army wouldn't need to feed bloggers "the good stories" from Iraq that aren't really being reported. Yeah, everyone really cares about some Joe giving a tootsie roll to a dirt kid, cause that's why we went to Iraq, to give out candy. Yeah, all those car bombs and dead soldiers and tens of thousands of dead hajis aren't really news.

Yep, blog the war
cause bullets ain't workin baby
this is a war over information now
and we are fighting it brother

12 January, 2006 20:37
TBone65 said...

This is an information war. I think people know inherently that war = death + violence at a basic level. The shit they don't know is the positive side. I'm not talking about handing out candy either. Most 11Bs don't do infrastructure rebuilding projects per other than security missions in support, they don't have their eye on the prize.

We aren't necessarily the people who need to hear about the good shit (infrastructure rebuilding, peace and security, etc)...the Iraqi people need to hear about it, especially if it isn't happening in their neighborhood yet. They need to hear about it because otherwise how will they know they can get it too? If all they hear is negative shit, then they will undoubtedly remain negative. Is the goal to keep everyone negative about this shit?

I used to tell the Iraqis to raise up and kick some ass. Kick the ass out of the insurgents in their neighborhoods because the sooner their enemies (notice I didn't say my enemies because my enemies are inconsequential to the argument) are gone, the sooner I can get the fuck out of Iraq.

Whether we agree with the administration or not...whether we agree with war or not...whether we want vanilla or chocolate doesn't make a difference in the long run. If we don't work towards a positive resolution to this shit, we will stay there longer. On the flip side; if we accentuate the positive things being accomplished in Iraq, we will be able to wrap this shit up sooner. If the insurgents realized that their actions keep us there, I don't know if they would be so zealous. If the regular Iraqis (asskrackies) knew their inaction keeps us there, I'm sure they would be jumping around like monkeys to make shit happen.

12 January, 2006 23:43
OneVeteran'sVoice said...

TBone, have you ever heard of the enemy of your enemy being your friend?

My true enemies are fanatics all over the world who wish to further an idea by killing other people.

Some of them wear towels on their head. Some of them are working in my own government.

I will do my best to make them all look as ridiculous as they wanna look.

"Whether we agree with the administration or not...whether we agree with war or not...whether we want vanilla or chocolate doesn't make a difference in the long run. If we don't work towards a positive resolution to this shit, we will stay there longer."

Tbone, god bless your soul, like the lifer you are, you are loyal to the bitter end. The positive resolution is us getting the fuck out of Iraq and impeaching the current leaders of our government. Maybe then we won't be looked at as the shitbags of the world.

And before you say, "who cares what the world thinks," I remind you that what they think is all that matters in the war over information. The Iraqis can see through the bullshit even easier than I can-- after all, they've been getting fucked over by colonial powers and strongmen for the last few centuries or so. What's so great about democrazy anyway, it gave us Bush? Iraqi democracy is not worth my life. I can't ask others to sacrifice if I am unwilling. I can't even abide it happening. It makes me fucking sick to think of these draft dodging sons of bitches wearing army gear and acting like generals. Playing their own little game of Risk with real pieces. Bush is a fucking moron and more people are starting to realize it. Like the 19 year old burnout I was, I didn't vote in 2000. Then I enlisted. Then I voted for Kerry from Iraq. So don't blame me. This guy is literally tearing this country and others apart in his wake of incompetence. It has to end. Impeach Bush. Impeach Cheney. Abuse of executive privilege. Blatant disregard for the constitution they are sworn to protect. Waging an illegal war of aggression in Iraq. Failing to properly secure the nation against terrorist attack and natural disaster (Where the fuck is Osama, why aren't we pressuring the Pakistanis more to let substantial numbers of US forces in to look for him?), AND THE FACT THAT HE BELIEVES THE JURY'S STILL OUT ON EVOLUTION. Our last president was a scholar (lecherous and slimy, but not an idiot)-- good god what has happened to my America? We are a nation of dumbasses. Our president is the chief chimp. TV lies like a heartless bitch, and can't be trusted. I find my solace in this strange world of clashing consciousness. Maybe there's some hope Tbone. I give you that. But before redemption must come an accounting. Impeach. Hit the reset button. Send me back to 1999. Damn that was a good year.
End Rant

26 Other Voices:

One Salient Oversight said...

Being a non-American, here's my take on why it matters what the world thinks

1/13/2006 06:52:45 AM  
Sarah said...

I can understand TBone's desire for a positive resolution; his feeling that the more we rebuild Iraq and the more good we can do, the sooner the troops can come home. Maybe he really thinks that he will come home earlier because of it. But I think it's a little like trying to buy flowers for someone after you ran over their child in the street. It just doesn't cut it.
I can understand his sentiment, but I think it's nothing more than wishful thinking, because it ignores everything else: the decades of Western intervention and subversion, the geopolitical realities of oil, the arms sales, the backroom political deals, the no-bid contracts to Halliburton, the economic sanctions, the lies, the propaganda, the American ignorance and nationalism, the cluster-bombing, the WP, the DU, the air strikes, the dead-checking, the checkpoints, the rapes, the dead civilians, men, women, children, babies, the American flags raised in Baghdad, the torture, the rendition, the photos, the Iraqi point of view, the god-awful smell of death. For a start. I can't get past those things to even begin to talk about the "good things" we are doing for the Iraqi people. And if I can't get past it, I am sure those Iraqis living this nightmare can't either.

1/13/2006 08:13:42 AM  
frazzledsister said...

That's a pretty discouraging view. And it seems very negative towards our soldiers over there in Iraq. With a opinion like that, what do you think of America in general? I mean, with all the things you mentioned it would seem like you detest America.

1/13/2006 09:25:06 AM  
Elmo said...

Nice rant OV. Have you read this from Knight Ridder? It seems Col. Steve Davis has gone schizophrenic. "We can change 'em, we can't change 'em, we must change 'em."( paraphrasing of course )

I wanted to blog about this article yesterday but got too busy.

1/13/2006 02:18:25 PM  
Elmo said...

Guess I better leave the article...

1/13/2006 02:24:14 PM  
The Un-Apologetic Atheist said...

God damn it pisses me off when people say "you must hate America" simply because some of us are willing to stop and ask the question "are we the badguys, here?"

As Al Franken once said,

"We love America just as much as they do. But in a different way. You see, they love America the way a four-year-old loves her mommy. Liberals love America like grown-ups. To a four-year-old, everything Mommy does is wonderful and anyone who criticizes Mommy is bad. Grown-up love means actually understanding what you love, taking the good with the bad, and helping your loved one grow."

1/13/2006 03:20:00 PM  
Sara said...

The first half of 2000 was great, too. That's when I enlisted. Three months later Bush stole the first election.... dark clouds formed in the horizon. Shit sure went downhill, didn't it? If you'd have told me back in July '00 that by the time I left the army, we'd be fighting TWO wars and George Bush would be president, I'd have called you a lunatic.

Oh, btw, did ya hear they're calling up people from the IRR again?

1/13/2006 03:25:40 PM  
OneVeteran'sVoice said...

No I didn't hear that Sara, and I'll hope I don't get a telegram. Back door draft baby. When the shit kicks off with Iran it will be real draft time. Time for some of these young college kids I will be starting school with on Tuesday to pony up and enlist. Or we could get sane again.

To whoever called me an 'merican hatin commie earlier, save it.

"it seems very negative towards our soldiers over there in Iraq."

Don't you get it yet?-- I was a soldier in Iraq. I want the best for the soldiers in Iraq, which is to come home very soon and not have to die for bullshit. I was thinking a lot of these same thoughts while I was a soldier in Iraq. Soldiers in Iraq are people too. Some support the war, some don't. Some support Bush, some hate him. I love my country, but the ideal of my country is what I love, not a person or a political party.

1/13/2006 05:05:32 PM  
frazzledsister said...

Perhaps you did not READ MY COMMENT? I ASKED you POLITELY what your OPINION was of America. There's no need to swear at me. Save it!
Ok. You are/were? a soldier. What do you think would happen if we did just leave Iraq now? And what do you think will happen if we stay in Iraq for the next, say, ten years? And you think we have done nothing of worth in Iraq? That is very serious and I find it hard to believe.
These are SERIOUS questions so please NO NAME CALLING or SWEARING, just your honest answer. You get dirty and I'm leaving, and you lose a chance to spout off to a average American. Not that I'll change my mind about these issues.

1/13/2006 06:45:22 PM  
dylan said...

I think he pretty clearly has stated his view. Repeatedly. The reason you might find it negative or serious is because maybe its a little more honest than you'd like to believe.

as far as the swearing/name calling. its his blog, its his voice.

Brian - good writing man, keep it up.

1/13/2006 07:36:13 PM  
OneVeteran'sVoice said...

soldiers swear
I swear

sorry if I offended, but if you are easily offended, I would suggest getting your news and views elsewhere.

My opinion of America is that it is a much better place to live than some places I have been, but not as good as it could be.

I think that we have fucked up Iraq much worse in a few years than Saddam would have in those few years. I think we should get out ASAP. Logistics make it impossible to be out tomorrow, but if you want an "artificial timetable", let's say a year. If you want to get the average Iraqi (and eventually the average Arab) on our side, it starts with truthtelling, credibility, and accountability-- how about an apology from the American people for invading their country without just cause? The ultimate apology is the impeachment of the executives that designed, sold, mismanaged, and lied continually to the American people about this war.

1/13/2006 07:39:58 PM  
One Salient Oversight said...

Frazzled Sister:

I mean, with all the things you mentioned it would seem like you detest America.

You may not have realised it but that sentence essentially called Brian a traitor. One thing I have learned is that you do not call veterans who have served in Iraq and who have been awarded a Bronze Star with valour a traitor.

And I, for one, am surprised that Brian didn't "go off" more at what you said.

1/14/2006 02:21:53 AM  
One Salient Oversight said...

Not that I'll change my mind about these issues.

Hmmmm, close mindedness. No point making comments here.

1/14/2006 02:23:32 AM  
frazzledsister said...

I wasn't talking to him in that comment, Mr. Oversight. You call me closeminded. Well, if I changed my mind on issues just becuase of one or two comments on a blog, then I would be unstable and basing my beliefs on only one type of evidence. That would not be smart. I have often been called closed-minded becuase I wouldn't conform to other people's beliefs. This seems to me to be a very arrogant and petty accusation.

soldier's voice- I don't see how we could possibly be worse than Saddam Hussien. All the other soldier blogs I read are at least hopeful about Iraq's future and admit that we have done some good things there. I think the majority of the lies about this war have come from the media.

And I think it is a common courtesy not to swear around women and strangers.

1/14/2006 09:45:01 AM  
TBone65 said...

Just a note about 1999...In 1999 I was carrying a weapon in Bosnia. One of our team houses was hit with an RPG and we had numerous grenade incidents, etc. to contend with...all courtesy of the Oxford Graduatin', fellatio-lovin-yet-lyin'-about-it prez. I also seem to remember Haiti, Somalia, and Kosovo on his watch. Oh and OP Desert Fox, where we launched a bit of ordnance on the peace loving peoples of Iraq. Maybe youse guys thought it was good to go then, but I remember quite a bit of military might being thrown around...of course all clothed under UN auspices (which essentially meant the US carried all the load anyway.) Clinton lied too. He was the one who originally said that Saddam's WMD capability was a threat to the world. I'll find the quote for you if you doubt the "Bush Lied" mantra falls on deaf ears. all sounds like lies after a while, on both sides of the aisle.

To Athiest: Al Franken...come on. He said, "...Grown-up love means actually understanding what you love, taking the good with the bad, and helping your loved one grow." Well how are comments like OV V's and Sarah's taking the good with the bad? (BTW Sarah, I appreciate you trying to see my side in the beginning.) But it all goes back to my original statement. We have to focus on the good too. This constant negativity reminds me of the spoiled child (to continue with franken's analogy/metaphor/whatever) who complains because his parents won't let him take the car, or told him to take out the trash. Or the baby who throws a fit because he can't have the toy in K-Mart. You guys need to chill out a bit on the rhetoric. All this anger is making me feel funny inside.

Speaking of good. I personally talked to hundreds of Iraqis who were extremely happy to be rid of Saddam. Grown dudes trying to kiss my hands and feet with tears running down their eyes. What is that all about? Do you suppose they were trying to kiss my ass because I had a gun, or maybe (just maybe) they were sincerely appreciative? I also talked to foreign fighters we captured during the initial assault, who told me they tried to seek shelter in Iraqi houses to hide from us. They told the Iraqis they wanted shelter because they were fighting in Iraq to protect them from the Americans. Do you know what the Iraqis did? They told the foreigners to bugger off and find somewhere else to hide because they didn't want or need protection. They told them they welcomed the Americans because they thought Saddam sucked. Were they lying? I don't think so. Just maybe (just maybe) they were telling the truth. What does that mean? You tell me.

Come on guys. Stop with the "chimp" this and the halliburton that...the shit is played out. Come up with some arguments that have traction and proof (and Michael Moore isn't proof, btw) then perhaps more of the population will be swayed. Say the chimp stole the election once, say the chimp stole the election twice...that's cool. Believe what you want, but there is a whole lot of red out there guys...a whole lot. You have to be slick like W.J. Clinton if you want to was called "triangulation" by Dick Morris. You have to be less venemous and more cerebral if you want your arguments to be taken seriously by us "lifer" jack-booted thugs.

1/14/2006 01:53:03 PM  
OneVeteran'sVoice said...

I am an uncouth killer. I swear around women, strangers, babies, whatever.

American soldiers have done good things in Iraq.

American soldiers have done horrible things in Iraq.

There are enough soldier blogs talking about the good things. To me, it's much more signifigant when something like Abu Ghraib emerges than say, a story about American soldiers giving school supplies to children. Abu Ghraib alone turned many, many Iraqis against us.

Like Sarah said,
"it's a little like trying to buy flowers for someone after you ran over their child in the street. It just doesn't cut it."

I am trying to offer a realistic view, and if you trust the media to give it to you, you are a little naive. You aren't even seeing the most graphic war footage, cause they think you can't handle it. It might upset you. It probably would upset you. I think you need to get upset.

I am not "soldier's voice". I am out of the army. I am one veteran. or Brian. Or Sarge, or whatever. Not a soldier, though. Soldiers can't say this kind of stuff.

Saddam was a sociopathic dictator, and a very bad man, but I don't think he would have killed 30,000 of his own people in a little under three years.

I truly want all this to work out for the best, but I refuse to project this image of everything being AOK in Iraq, cause it's not the truth.

1/14/2006 02:00:03 PM  
OneVeteran'sVoice said...

"of course all clothed under UN auspices (which essentially meant the US carried all the load anyway.) Clinton lied too. He was the one who originally said that Saddam's WMD capability was a threat to the world. I'll find the quote for you if you doubt the "Bush Lied" mantra falls on deaf ears."

Tbone, I never called you a jack-booted thug. I respect your opinion on the war infinitely more than frazzledazzle's, cause you have been there, done that. I don't have a problem with military action if we have the moral high ground, an international mandate, clear goals, proper planning, and the moral high ground. Using our military to stop genocide is an honorable thing.

Only we can give the UN credibility. It could be a much more effective organization. I don't think Bush lied when he said Iraq had WMDs. Shit, even France's intelligence service believed that. I think Bush did grossly exaggerate the threat, as well as not paying any attention to people within the government who believed otherwise. I do think that Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld have lied repeatedly in characterizing the war when they come on TV. "The insurgency is in its last throes." "We'll send as many troops as are requested." "They're not insurgents, let's call them demon spawn, maybe that'll boost our poll ratings a little bit."

We can't PR ourselves out of this mess.

1/14/2006 02:07:12 PM  
OneVeteran'sVoice said...

The guy does look like a chimp though, you can't deny it. I get a laugh out of it every time. Cheap, I know.

1/14/2006 02:09:47 PM  
JamesRaven said...

Brian, the stylized comments prove the simple power and value of repetitive propaganda: poured from the mind of Rove into the ears of Rush, copied and pasted endlessly in wingnut blogs and "mainstream" television, then written as "fact" here. The Invasion of Iraq, regardless of reason, was and is a bad idea, because of what's happening on the ground there right now. No amount of happy news can change the civil war Bush created. No amount of Clinton-bashing can change this monumental mistake.

Only one man has ever uttered the treasonous and hideous "Bring 'em on!", taunting the people killing our soldiers. Only one man stood on an aircraft carrier and called it "Mission Accomplished" 2075 deaths ago.

And, sadly, only one man will preside over the death of this country's freedoms, a death he surely cheers in private, guiding him toward the dictatorship he thinks he deserves.

Keep writing, Brian. I hear you loud and clear.

1/14/2006 02:51:10 PM  
frazzledsister said...

My name is frazzledsister, buddy. It seems to me there are a whole lot more soldiers blogs saying good things than there are saying bad things. And I don’t trust the media, not AT ALL. I try to be very cautious as to where I get my news and how much of it I believe. Do you think that I need to be upset by graphic war footage so that I would change my mind about the war? I realize, as much as a civilian can anyway, that war is terrible. But we can’t NOT fight and NOT protect ourselves. To me one of the main reasons to stay in Iraq besides giving the Iraqis a decent country, is that we are killing terrorists there. I know that it is not all just fine over there. I mean, the media only tells the negative stories. We hear it all the time-Bush lied, we need to pull out, so many soldiers died today, etc. It’s all over the news. So, Jamesraven, it would seem that you also are the welcoming recipient of repetitive propaganda from our very own TV and newspaper media.

1/14/2006 04:33:55 PM  
OneVeteran'sVoice said...

Frazzled-- I'll get your name right when you can get mine right.

me<---dazzled that you didn't see the sarcasm

This session of healthy debate is about over for me, cause I have some other projects to take care of this weekend, and I will leave it at this.

Frazzled, All I can say is that if you are a heterosexual between the ages of 17-35, you should visit and contact your nearest recruiter. I was stop-lossed the entire time I was in Iraq, because our army is having a problem recruiting enough young people to help the Iraqis. I urge you to enlist and take the place of a stop-lossed soldier who wants to get out. You can see with your own two eyes all the good that we are doing in Iraq. You can blog about it and shout it to the world to your heart's content. The military will love you for it-- you might even get fed some "exclusive content" by a PR firm paid with my tax dollars. You can personally help the Iraqis. If you're lucky, you might even get the chance to kill a terrorist. Imagine how good that would feel. Consider enlisting, your country and the Iraqis need your help.

1/14/2006 04:53:07 PM  
One Salient Oversight said...

Frazzled Sister,

I have to say that your comments and opinions are actually "Boilerplate" - in other words, you are simply reciting and regurgitating what has been given to you by people you trust implicitly.

I honestly believe that the only way to come up with a respectable opinion on anything is to take the time to examine both sides of the argument, weigh up the arguments dispassionately, realise that there will always be errors on both sides, and then make an opinion.

I did that in 2003 in the six months before the US invasion of Iraq. Despite the fact that Bush, Blair and others were saying "Iraq is an imminent threat to us all", I was examining all the evidence. And you know what? I realised fairly early on that there was no real evidence at all. And that's the reason I opposed the invasion in 2003, and it's the same reason why I oppose the current US occupation.

It had nothing to do with the politics of Bush. If Clinton or Gore or even Abe Lincoln himself had got up and argued for war the same way Bush did, I would have opposed them.

And my research into the Iraq death count pretty much confirms what Brian has said - Saddam may have been a brutal self-serving dictator but there was no way he ever killed 30,000 odd Iraqis in a three-year period. Hey, I'm glad Saddam is gone, but I think the situation in Iraq is far worse than what it would have been had the US not invaded.

I think the majority of the lies about this war have come from the media.

I agree. The New York Times, for example, ran stories pre-war that indicated very clearly that Iraq had WMDs and was an imminent threat. Now because of the Plame affair, we realise that the mainstream media is being pressured and almost controlled by people in the White House. If there have been any lies, then it has been lies to support the war.

I'll say this clearly - no WMDs were ever found. When the US invaded, Iraq had not had any WMDs, or any WMD program, for some years. Why? Because the UN sanctions actually worked. Moreover, the UN inspectors before the invasion could not come up with any clear evidence that Iraq had WMDs - information that the US disregarded because many Americans have a pathological and bizarre hatred of the UN.

Frazzled Sister, if I may make a suggestion... when you're old enough I seriously advise you to attend college or university in either the New England or Pacific North-West, and that you move out of home and learn how to study things objectively and for yourself, regardless of whether your parents disagree with you.

I'll finish with a little story. I live in Australia. About 7 years ago one of my wife's friends - a guy she went to school with - married a young woman from Nebraska. They met over the internet and were able to court one another via international flights. Eventually they got married and she moved from Nebraska to Sydney, Australia. Her family in Nebraska was (and probably still is) a lovely, god-fearing and hospitable family (I think they were from Lincoln). Moreover, they had traditional values, and were pretty much voting for Bush and the GOP - which is fairly normal for people like that.

But when America invaded in 2003, this young woman, now livig in Australia, got into a serious disagreement with her family over the invasion. While her family were all for the invasion, she was against it. Had she stayed in Nebraska she would have probably been supportive of the war. But now she was against it. Why?

It was because her time outside the US and outside her cultural values had opened her eyes to what was going on in the world. Although she had not given up her Christian faith, she realised that there were serious questions about the invasion. And this despite the fact that she was living in a country which sent troops and fighter bombers to support the invasion.

So - join the army like Brian suggested, or go to a college that will challenge you so you have to defend and redefine your own beliefs and values.

1/14/2006 08:25:51 PM  
JamesRaven said...

Frazzled, I don't watch TV (at all), nor do I read newspapers (ever). I write a blog, and I read a wide variety of internet information sources, many of which (gasp!) aren't controlled by American corporations, which in turn are controlled by, or shills for, the White House. Salient has it right. One often considers themselves "informed" by those who limit information to boilerplate phrases and impossibly simplistic solutions. As long as we have free speech, I'll back your right to it to the hilt. I just think we're already far down the road to losing it, and soon.

1/14/2006 10:15:47 PM  
Sarah said...

Since when is "bullshit" really swearing anyway. I mean for cryin' out loud, even network TV lets them say "crap" now.

"And I think it is a common courtesy not to swear around women and strangers."

frazzledsister, when you grow up and enter the real world, you will realize how disingenuous that statement is. Who are you to get the vapors because of what people write on a blog? Get over it, quit playing classic female victim - it gives the rest of us a bad name anyway, and start thinking for yourself: you will need it, I promise you.

As for people talking about Shiny Happy Iraqis, as One Veteran said, there are plenty of those blogs out there if you want to bury your head in them.

1/15/2006 05:48:21 PM  
frazzledsister said...

You know, pretty much all of you have said the same thing- because I am young and I live at home, you all assume that I have not thought these issues through and am just blindly accepting what my parents, you assume, are telling me. I find this way of debate to be condescending and illogical. I live in the real world, just like you do. I disagree with pretty much everything you have said, especially the swearing issue! Since when has swearing become acceptable in public? And I do not think disagreeing with my parents was the issue here. Oh well. I bid you all farewell. This discussion is not beneficial to anyone, because no one except for Oversight is even decently discussing issues and he and I will not be changing our minds.

1/15/2006 07:02:58 PM  
One Salient Oversight said...

Frazzled Sister,

(That is, if you come back to read this)

Quite a number of the points I raise have come because I had a reasonably long look through your blog. There is nothing in your blog that I could find that expresses any grappling with issues or trying to look at things from both points of view. The only one I found that came close to this was your posting on Harry Potter and why you won't read him - but even that seemed strange (especially since you found Harry Potter dangerous while Star Trek Voyager was fine).

I'm always a person who will change his mind when confronted with evidence. I have done it in the past and I will do it again in the future. At my own blog, I have already written one article that was complete rubbish and proved wrong by one of my readers.

I want to be challenged. I want to discover the truth. I want to use the brain that God has given me. Sometimes this leads me into uncomfortable areas, but I have to be brave and go in, knowing that my beliefs and feelings may come under fire. Oftentimes I come out completely the same as I was when I went in, this reinforcing the strength of my own beliefs.

That's what I do. That's what we should all do.

1/15/2006 10:32:45 PM  

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